To Hellman and back: screen legend Shirley MacLaine talks to gay indie icon Craig Chester about her work in Lillian Hellman's The Children's Hour, new to DVD. (video).

The first time I met Shirley MacLaine, she was Mary Kay Ash. While visiting my friend Parker Posey in Winnipeg, Canada, for the shoot of the CBS movie Hell on Heels: The Battle of Mary Kay, I had been forewarned. "Shirley is so cool," Parker reported to me a day before I arrived. "You are going to love her." Over the next three weeks, while I fended off Winnipeg's infamous mosquito population, Parker's prediction came true. I fell in love with Shirley MacLaine, and yes, she was very, very cool. I watched Shirley work on a role that would eventually garner her a Golden Globe nomination, and when she was off-camera, we talked. And talked. And talked.

Thought-provoking, fiercely intelligent, and hysterically funny, Shirley MacLaine is also a storyteller. Being that we are both actors who have written somewhat controversial memoirs, we have a lot of stories up our sleeves. Upon hearing the nature of my book, Why the Long Face? which deals with being out in Hollywood, she replied, "You're going out on a limb too, Craig!" We have both, in our ways, come out of our respective closets--hers spiritual, mine sexual--and we related to how our lives have sometimes seemed more interesting and weird than some of the roles we've played.

But in MGM's new DVD release of Lillian Hellman's The Children's Hour (1961), we're reminded of MacLaine the actor at her best--the perfect union of provocative person with provocative role. I recently phoned Shirley to discuss her classic film's "reincarnation" on DVD.

I just watched The Children's Hour and thought you were amazing!

Well, it's not about me, Craig; it's about what Lillian was trying to say.

I found it to be both dated and somehow oddly relevant at the same time.

There was a lot to be done in that movie that wasn't done. There were whole scenes where my character, Martha, was lovingly ironing Karen's clothes, brushing her hair, baking for her, and so forth, and then, at the last minute, Willie Wyler got scared and cut the arc of my character out because he was afraid of the controversy. It still stands up, but the critics at the time knew what he had done, and they called it a "cultural antique." I'm sorry that he didn't go all the way. He was more or less saying that Martha didn't know what she was really feeling, but she did She knew she was in love with Karen; [she was] not a confused person. A knowing person. It was about this taboo love. But everything is ultimately about love. All love is about spirituality.

Were you apprehensive about playing a lesbian in the early '60s?

Oh, not at all! I only got apprehensive once he cut it down!

But even though much of Martha's overt lesbianism is cut down, I think a lot of gay men and women can still relate to her feelings of outrage at both the outside world and at herself for what she is. I liked that the film spoke of the feelings of love between these women, as opposed to just some overtly sexual thing as everything gay seems to be today.

Well, today, it's the culture of desire. Today, it's all about controversy. Back then we were more interested in the emotional side of things.

Did you develop a friendship with Audrey Hepburn during the movie? Oh, my God, I was in love with her!

Who wouldn't be! How do you think Hollywood has changed in its perceptions of gays and lesbians?

Oh! Well, they're everywhere now! Just like they are in real life! It's all changing--the perception of what families are everything. You know, I really do admire what Rosie [O'Donnell] is doing. In this country we don't have the closemouthed attitudes about things anymore. And that's the brilliance of this society and the freedom to be who you are. What would Michelangelo have achieved in that time period if he was as free as gay men are now? What if he was known as a gay artist? Can you imagine?

Yeah, actually, I can. Did you have lots of gay friends in the early '60s, Shirley?

I've had gay friends, Craig, since I was 20! I was in the ballet, and I never knew what all the fuss was about. I just never understood why there was so much homophobia at all, so there's really been no arc in my growth at all with the subject.

You're such a gay icon in so many ways. Why do you think that is?

I think the gay movement--out of desperation, I suppose--has found alternative spiritualities because so much of traditional religion does not accept them, and that is what I write about. Also, because I came out of the spiritual "closet" before anybody else did, despite the consequences--that's something that gay people can relate to.

What do you think gays and lesbians have to teach the world?

To tell the truth. Lillian Hellman was a person of truth-telling, and that's why she wrote The Children's Hour. What Lillian was saying is that in every lie there is an ounce of truth. In the lie the little girl tells, there's truth in it about Martha.

Oh! That little girl Mary! I hated her! She was such a nightmare. I kept wanting you and Audrey to be like, "Screw these yokels! We're movin' to the Village and getting a cat!"

Craig, this is Lillian Hellman; that's not what she wanted to say. It was about this taboo love. But everything is ultimately about love. The love between people--black, white, orange, or purple. That's what life's all about after all, isn't it?

Chester has starred in a number of notable gay independent films (including Swoon, Grief, and I Shot Andy Warhol) and recently published his memoir, Why the Long Face? (St. Martin's Press).