The spirit of nature: Ramesh Bjonnes talks with poet Robert Bly about ecology, spirituality and the capitalist marketplace.

Robert Bly is a poet, translator and essayist, as well as the founding father of what he calls the "expressive men's movement." He became a national sensation with the publication of Iron John: A Book About Men. His other works include Meditations on the Insatiable Soul, What Have I Ever Lost by Dying?, Morning Poems and Eating the Honey of Words. Bly visited our area earlier this year for a speaking event at UNCA. Here, he speaks with Ramesh Bjonnes and New Life Journal and shares a poetic take on spirituality--from the ancient to the modern.

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NLJ: You have written extensively about the descending path of spirituality--a love for nature--whereas the ascending path focuses on a love for God. Wouldn't it be good to Fred a balance between the two?

Bly: Well, that's obvious. But the ascending path has been so strong that people often forget what the descending path is all about.

NLJ: Through eco-psychology, spiritual ecology and eco-feminism, it seems the descending path is getting a new renaissance, would you agree?

Bly: Yes, I agree. The metaphor for the descending path is the descent of Sophia. According to the Gnostic religion, Sophia looked down upon this planet of ours and decided to descend into it. She entered inside the stones, the trees, the birds and the water. She went into fire and air. This is the story of Sophia.

NLJ: This reminds me of the Tantric concept of Shakti, or the active and dynamic principles of feminine power.

Bly: Yes, exactly. Sophia--like Shakti--is an active, powerful force, all-encompassing and all-pervading energy in nature. So why do people look for the spirit only in the heavens? The descent of Sophia is the first stage of the later ascent of Jesus. These two are companions. It is therefore important for us to follow the descending path of Sophia, down into nature, before attempting to ascend.

The ecology movement, then, is a response to the inability of the capitalist world to understand that Sophia is also in the rainforest.

Through the loss of the story of Sophia, the Christian Church has given permission to the capitalists to destroy nature. This was done partly by translating the word 'Sophia' as 'wisdom.' This destroys the story and takes away the feminine quality. There have been many such errors in translating the Old Testament, and we are suffering from those mistakes today.

You see the same kind of energy in the Lady of the Mountain as when you look at statues of Shakti in the form of Kali. Shiva is the passive energy. In those statues, Kali often stands on top of Shiva. In the masks of Kali, you are looking at tremendous spiritual energy.

NLJ: A ferocious kind of energy?

Bly: Yes, and why is it ferocious? Because it tries to defend nature, which is the embodiment of Sophia.

NLJ: Since nature is a manifestation of Shakti or Sophia, she is conscious and intelligent but does not have as much self-consciousness as humans. What is your perception of consciousness in nature?

Bly: I was actually thinking about Wordsworth's praise today: "Nature never did betray the heart that loved Her." So, yes, it is true that there is greater self-consciousness in humans, but humans are also full of betrayal. We betray each other all the time. The reason why Japanese poets go to nature, for example, is because "nature never did betray the heart that loved Her."

And that's why Taoists like to move toward that which has an affectionate consciousness, and which . will not betray you. So, by destroying nature, we are destroying the one thing in the universe that will not betray us.

NLJ: So how does modern technology fit into all of this?

Bly: Well, I think it is absolutely ridiculous to think that the computer will bring some kind of renaissance. Technology used to move much slower before. A Japanese poet recently said, "We have moved from walking to the rickshaw to the horse-carriage to the airplane without taking time to stop or pause." And that is terrifying. The speed with which technology has developed is demonic.

I recently read a book in which the author said something like this: "We used to build great houses, beautiful bridges and roads, but today we build only markets." So, the only thing that can become bigger now is the capitalist marketplace. We have simply given up on our pride in building great and beautiful things.

NLJ: I have heard you spend a lot of time in nature, especially when writing poetry. Is that true?

Bly: Oh, yes. I leave the city to be in nature because it nurtures my soul. William Blake said, "The important thing is to live in the moment during the day when the devil cannot find you." It is the moment in nature when the devil cannot Find me--it is the moment I write my poems.

Blake also said, "The robin red-breast in his cage/ puts all of heaven in a rage." In other words, our habit of imprisoning nature in a cage is felt by heaven as a real betrayal. There is an important awareness in these words, a deep understanding of the harmony between both the ascending and descending path.

Ramesh Bjonnes is a freelance writer, columnist and co-founder of the Prama Institute, a retreat and seminar center focusing on arts, spirituality and sustainability, which sponsored Bly's recent Asheville reading. For more information, visit www.pramainstitute.org.