The model Boy Scout.

Sitting across from James Dale, you can't help feeling you are in the presence of an archetypal Boy Scout. Earnest, polite, handsome, charismatic, and well-spoken are all words that immediately spring to mind.

And, indeed, the 27-year-old Dale spent 12 years of his life tirelessly serving the Boy Scouts of America, eventually rising to the rank of assistant scoutmaster until the organization expelled him in 1990 after learning he was gay. For the past eight years, Dale has turned the same moral righteousness that he learned from the Scouts against the group in court.

Initially Dale lost his case to a judge who called him a "sodomite." But on March 2 a split three-judge appeals-court panel in New Jersey ruled that the restriction was illegal and that Dale should be allowed to serve as a scoutmaster. According to Evan Wolfson, who represented Dale on a pro bono basis for the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund, the gay legal group that is fighting a similar case in California, it was the first time "any court has ruled in our favor against the discriminatory policy of the Boy Scouts of America."

The court said the Scouts cannot discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation. The opinion read, "There is absolutely no evidence before us ... supporting a conclusion that a gay scoutmaster, solely because he is a homosexual, does not possess the strength of character necessary to properly care for or impart BSA humanitarian ideals to the young boys in his charge." The judges went further, praising Dale's moral character and issuing a scathing rebuke to the first judge for his homophobic remarks. Maintaining that it has the right to set its own membership criteria, the BSA has vowed to appeal the decision to the state supreme court.

In an interview with The Advocate, Dale, who now lives in New York City and works as a publicist and events coordinator for Poz magazine, talks about his long battle to set the Scouts straight.

What did the Boy Scouts mean to you?

I think what the scouting program teaches is self-reliance and leadership. Giving your best to society. Leaving things better than you found them. Standing up for what's right. That's one of the tragic ironies of this whole story--that when they found out that I was gay, suddenly I wasn't good enough anymore.

Growing up, did you find the Scouts to be a homophobic environment?

If anything, I think it was much less homophobic than the norm of society. I think the Boy Scouts allows for the human factor a lot more than other organizations. It was a more supportive environment. This policy really goes against everything this program taught me.

When did you come out?

I came out when I was 19. Going to Rutgers University and meeting other gay people, I was seeing positive role models who were gay. After that the whole idea of being gay wasn't so alien to me. The summer between my first and second years of college, I met a guy who was gay. He told me about the gay community. That gave me the self-respect and pride I needed so that when I went back to Rutgers in my sophomore year, I had no problem telling other people. I immediately started going to the lesbian and gay organization at Rutgers. About three months later there was a vacancy in the presidency position. I was elected by the lesbian and gay alliance to take that position. I was always taught that if there's a need, you pick up the slack.

How did the Scouts find out you were gay?

It was the summer between my sophomore and junior years that I was speaking at a conference for social workers. Shortly thereafter a newspaper article ran. About a week later I got a letter from the Boy Scouts that said I no longer meet its standards for leadership. I didn't even know what it was about. So I sent them a letter, and then I got a second letter back from them, and that said avowed homosexuals are not permitted in the Boy Scouts of America. When I heard that I felt really devastated and betrayed. This is a program that I spent my weekends and time after school focusing on, helping out at nursing homes and cleaning parks. I had given so much to the program so freely and so happily.

When did you decide to fight back?

A month later, after I had talked it over with some friends, I knew what they had done was wrong and that this wrong must be undone. I found Lambda, which took my case in 1990. But it wasn't a very strong case at first. Even though it appeared to be illegal, it wasn't. New Jersey didn't have a nondiscrimination law inclusive of sexual orientation. But shortly thereafter New Jersey enacted a nondiscrimination law that included gays. Then the first judge, who was very, very antigay, ruled against me and even mentioned brimstone and fire in his decision.

How did your family deal with the publicity associated with your court fight?

Not every parent has to deal with the fact of their child's being gay becoming public. They take it personally too. My mother was a den leader when I was a Cub Scout. It's not just what they did to me; it's what they did to us. My mother was recently at a seminar, and one of the people there said some antigay stuff. And my mother stood up and said, "That's my son you're talking about. You don't know what you are talking about. You're ignorant." My father is in the military, and he goes and raises money for the Gay Men's Health Crisis's walkathon.

How do you feel about your victory?

It was a wonderfully worded opinion. They went the exact opposite way that the first judge did. It has taken eight years, but I'd wait another eight years to get this decision. It's a shame so much money is being wasted on this bigotry and discrimination. When I think about all the money I spent on uniforms, camps, and merit badges, I get really upset. There are often these drives for kids to go to camp who can't afford it. If they stopped suing people for being gay, they could afford to send a lot more people to camp.

What would you say to a young scout today who wanted to come out?

I don't want to ever advise somebody not to come out of the closet, because it was the most wonderful thing I ever did. But a gay scout called me up a few years ago when my lawsuit was first announced. Against my better judgment, I had to tell him that they'll kick him out of the program if he comes out.

Do you think there is hope for change at the Boy Scouts?

There's a 13-year-old kid who's made it his own personal issue for his Eagle Scout project to generate a million signatures to overturn this policy I'm fighting. His father and one of his assistant scoutmasters are behind an organization called Scouting for All. They are all straight. It's one thing to say homophobia is wrong. It's another to put your money where your mouth is, to make this his own persona struggle. This boy is my hero.

RELATED ARTICLE: A California boy takes on the Scouts

While most 13-year-olds are immersed in school, friends, and the daily trials and tribulations of newfound teenagehood, Steven Cozza of Petaluma, Calif., is busy taking on the Boy Scouts of America. He's calling press conferences, circulating petitions, writing politicians, and meeting with the press. And he's doing all this around an already packed schedule of skateboarding, baseball practices, wrestling meets, scouting meetings, and homework.

Why would a 13-year-old boy who self-identifies as straight ("although it shouldn't matter what I am," he says) take on the Scouts' policy of discriminating against gays? "Because it's not fair," says Cozza, who is helping spearhead the Scouting for All campaign. "They are living in the past, and what they are teaching people is to discriminate instead loving everyone an giving everyone the same chances."

Cozza, who has already attended three gay pride marches in San Francisco with his father, Scott Cozza (a counselor for HIV patients and the homeless), is quite willing to risk being called gay by friends or fellow students at Petaluma Junior High School.

"Steven's avoided a lot of the name-calling because he is really well-liked at school," his father says. "He's always done what he feels is right, and it doesn't matter what anyone else says. Kids can respect that." And who better to take on the Scouts than Cozza, a model scout in his own right. At 13, he's already a Life Scout, which is just one step away from the highest rank of Eagle Scout, usually attained in one's late teens.

Even with the Boy Scouts' policy of discriminating against gays, Cozza says he doesn't plan on leaving the Scouts. "I love the Boy Scouts," he says. "That's why I'm doing all this. I think everyone should be able to be in the Boy Scouts."