The Chronicle interview.

Mechai Viravaidya, who was in New York to attend the 54th Annual Conference for Non-Governmental Organizations associated with the United Nations Department of Public Information, is a social activist, government planner and NGO leader. He is Chairman of the Population and Community Development Association, which has spearheaded Thailand's community-based family planning, rural development and anti-AIDS programmes since the 1970s. Through the Thai Business Initiative for Rural Development (TBIRD), he has also tried to stem village migration in his country. In 1978, the Thai Government adopted the Community-Based Distribution of Contraceptives, which he started. In an interview with Vikram Sura for the UN Chronicle, Mr. Viravaidya says that poverty alleviation, fighting corruption and an increased political and social role for women are his current priorities.

What was the impetus for the Population and Community Development Association beginning its work in 1974, long before the idea of people-centred development took root in the developing world?

Well, it was basic common sense. If you want to get something done, then the people themselves must be involved, just like a soldier in a war--if the soldier doesn't want to fight he can't win the war. So our plan was that the people for whom this was being planned had to be the key element, the key player, so this was the only way we think.

You said "we think", but it was you who thought it then. Did you face any obstacles? No one around you was thinking like that then?

No, nobody opposed that at all in Thailand or from abroad that I know of.

Did you get sufficient support from the Government?

Oh, yes! We got permission from the Government to work in this field, and the output went on government statistics as their achievement also. So everyone's quite happy about it.

Globalization tries to centre capital around large, urban cities, thus proving irresistible to the rural folk to migrate. Do initiatives like TBIRD dash with the dynamics of globalization?

Globalization to me is just like a game of basketball-- the tallest always wins. When you change basketball to be more like weightlifting, when everyone has a weight, then they have a chance to win. That might be better. And I think this may be considered later on. But in our case we found that people come from upcountry into the city. This destroys the social fabric, the cultural tradition of the villages. The best thing to do is to keep them in the villages and take machines to people, rather than people to machines. And that's what we did.

Would that be successful in other countries too?

I can't see why not? Because migration actually kills rural villages. As long as you have some simple infrastructure like electricity and roads, then that should be all right. I think other countries are beginning to think about that.

Why do you think Governments are reluctant to address AIDS as they have other diseases like tuberculosis or malaria?

Well, it has something to do with sex; I think it has something to do with sex. People turn their minds off somehow, which is rather sad. But nevertheless, that's the reality. And then many Governments in the Asian countries went through a stage of denial. But now I think they have realized that the more they deny, the more people are affected.

So it is primarily, as you said, related to sex education.

Just sex generally. With everything related to sex, people, especially Governments, tend to be very uncomfortable.

But sex is not the only cause of AIDS.

But the majority [of AIDS cases] now in Asia is through sex. And in Africa, yes, sex is the main cause. It's only a tiny bit in certain countries where intravenous drugs contribute ... but the majority is through sex.

Your campaign against AIDS emphasized that the rights of patients be defended against mandatory blood tests. How far was this effective in creating trust in the Government's AIDS programme?

Well, it was very important that people had to agree to blood tests; it is a basic human right--so that any mandatory test was stopped. And it was pushed from the outside that it got this going in the Government.

And was there any kind of reluctance from the Government?

In the beginning, yes, but we had to "hit them over the head". I was in the Government also. I was a minister in the cabinet--so I sat above these people who wanted to put in draconian rules and regulations.

In patriarchal Asian societies, how do the treatment and perception of women influence tile fight against AIDS, and where do women fit in this fight?

Well, women just have to be given more rights. And in Thailand, we are trying very hard to do even more than what people say is natural. For instance, we are hoping to succeed over the next five years in a constitutional amendment to get half of the senate seats for women. The more we can do for women, the more we can do for ordinary women. The more in politics, the more in representation, the more we can do for them in all other areas. Women are very, very important in the development process; they have proven to be immensely successful, and it's only short-sightedness by males in Government. When you have two brilliant arms, why use only one?

How long do you think It would take--from more representation for women to effective policies which are sympathetic to them--when for centuries you had these societies that were patriarchal?

No, it changes. We didn't know how to fly for the first several thousand years! But we've been flying, haven't we been lately? So we can't lust sit back. Because time hasn't been on our side in terms of history doesn't mean we can't speed it up now. Look how many women have become prime ministers or presidents of countries in the last ten years as compared to the last 200 years?

What is at the top of your social agenda now?

There is definitely anti-corruption. Most important of all is poverty alleviation, which is number one, and then the role of women.

Where do you see the role of literacy in fighting against poverty alleviation?

Poverty is always there regardless of whether you have literacy or not, so that the more we get literacy going the better. But don't see illiteracy as the major condition for poverty.

Then what do you think Is one of the major conditions for poverty?

Lack of opportunity and Government using the wrong types of approach to eradicate poverty. The Government uses the welfare approach to help the poor. What we should do is get people who are good at business to make the poor better at business and provide them with better opportunities. That means bringing in the business community, which I call the privatization of poverty alleviation. We have to use that type of approach more and more. We are doing that in Thailand, and TBIRD is part of that.

When you talk about out the welfare approach, are you apprehensive about any subsidies being given?

For how long can you give subsidies? Where will you get the money? We are talking about the poor countries.

Population growth is generally considered a burden on a country's economic growth. With Information technology now driving the global economy, countries like China and India are exporting their human resources. Can developing nations with huge populations empower their economies In this way?

For most countries, the numbers that you send abroad are totally insignificant to the total population growth. I never saw that as a major gain.

But India is considering that as a major gain.

Well, it might consider that as a gain in the short term, but when India gets to be bigger than China, then this number would not be very significant. When you are getting pretty close to a billion, then how many are you exporting?

When I mean exporting, the people there are pumping dollars back into the economy.

Exporting people usually is done in times of distress, normally--and are the Indians exporting because life is the same in the two places or not ... or because you earn more by going abroad. But again, how many people can do that? There is a limit to that possible gain.

Where do you see the role of the United Nations in all this?

The UN should keep more individuals and non-governmental organization people involved in some of their work, rather than lust being solely governmental.

Do you think that slows down the process?

I think you need to use all aspects. Like when we are talking about men, we should involve women, and when we are talking about development, we need Government as well as non-government. It's the same approach of using men and women.

How far does your missionary zeal draw Its source from your parents--both physicians?

Well, I don't know. Partly from my parents, partly from my education and upbringing, and partly from my experience of being with the poor.