Persistence is all: a conversation with Jon Whitney of brainwashed.com.

It started with a question.

When the band Meat Beat Manifesto promised a release in October of 1995 and nothing showed up, devoted fan Jon Whitney began to wonder. When a single finally came out in 1996, he recognized the fan club address as the address of a friend. Soon after contacting him, Whitney was busy creating and maintaining the band's official website. From now on, he would know.

It was this thirst for not only discovering but also distributing first-hand information about lesser-known and experimental music which lead to the creation of brainwashed.com. Combining his questioning nature with a healthy dose of panache, erudition and humor, Whitney and his band of volunteers provided an online home to some of the most creative musical minds of this generation and helped to shape a new independent music subculture. And with the recent publication of Daniel Keenan's book England's Hidden Reverse and noise artist Emil Beaulieau's summer performance at Afterimage's own Visual Studies Workshop, the striking sounds of the members of the Brainwashed family are starting to attract a more academic audience. After seven successful years on the internet, Brainwashed now hosts a roster of over 50 bands, with many sites serving as official ones. As if this wasn't enough, the site now provides a weekly magazine, The Brain, complete with album reviews (and music samples), news, polls and even a record label--all, until just very recently, without advertisements. The BBC routinely links to the Brainwashed Brain as a source of independent music news, and the site itself has been reviewed by publications as diverse as Billboard, CMJ and Entertainment Weekly. But Brainwashed has come to symbolize more than just an internet promotion opportunity for independent musicians and their fans--it has created a community that spans nations. As one writer at the fakejazz website (www.fakejazz.com) describes, "Brainwashed is a valuable resource to any serious music fan. It has come to represent the open expanse of possibilities in music ... to intone Brainwashed is to invoke a complex set of ideas and ideals in an instant."

Suzanne Bestler: Can you capsulate the mission of Brainwashed in a sentence?

Jon Whitney: A place where people can waste some time and learn something about music they will probably never see on TV or read about in major publications.

What necessitated the being of Brainwashed? Was there an impetus to its formation?

Rich histories of important musical artists without appropriate representation on the Internet.

Why first did you choose an online format? (Not text/print based?)

Online wastes no paper. Corrections can always be made-and I think this is important in a number of ways-people seem to take printed words as being completely infallible. This has led to the gross misconduct by people reading various bibles and reinterpreting the US constitution even. Interactive publication is a living thing and has to accept when it's wrong and change appropriately.

Is this complete fallibility part of what often makes the Internet so suspect?

Printed words are equally as fallible. It's all about whose words you, as a reader, trust.

Why do you think that the printed word still evokes such responses? Are we as a culture attached more to the printed word because of its history, or because of its actual physicality?

Or portable convenience. People love CDs because of their convenience over records and MP3s because of their convenience over CDs. You don't need a computer to read a magazine or newspaper on the bus on your way to work.

What do you think is responsible for Brainwashed's longevity? Is It more your organization or the strength of the artists?

So long as there are people who are willing to contribute. I don't do the whole thing myself-not even close-but so long as there's a staff of people who share similar visions and are eager to put their time in, it will continue.

Unlike other pages of similar content, Brainwashed has a history of international participation. What do you think this stems from? Is It from the music, although it is primarily made by white Americans/Brits?

People are welcome to contribute from all over the world. The doors are open. However, we do write in English and that limits the number of people who can contribute. I do have editorial standards and can sometimes be very demanding on the writers of The Brain. Our reviews are something different than everybody else's in the fact we try to abstain from using obscure language to convey opinion. In the end, a review is the opinion of the writer and should NEVER read like an advertisement or a one-sheet. That's what stores and labels do. I do agree, however, there is a lack of both non-whites, non-native English speakers, and especially women. I've made pleas before but in the end, it's up to the individual to actually contribute and I can't force anybody to do anything they don't want to do.

After operating without profit for so many years, how difficult was the transition to offering ad space in The Brain to make, especially ethically? Is this the future of independent website survival? Should the government be involved with grants, stipends, etc? Would you take this money if it were offered to you?

I don't see the sponsors as ads. Think of it like National Public Radio. We've never broken even on any releases and are constantly losing money for things like equipment and such. There isn't a mega selling campaign going on and there are only sponsors on one page on the entire web site. We'll never put sponsorship ads on things like the Coil discography or Heat Beat Manifesto videos or something-that would be like selling out your friends--but the rates we charge are so insanely low that we're still far from breaking even. Every penny counts, however, and I'm completely appreciative of the people who have helped out. I would accept grant money, sure, but I would have to be sure it was accepted on the proper terms. We wouldn't do it if, in turn, we had to support a war campaign or a political candidate.

If you could change one thing about the page, what would it be? Do you have any personal goals for the site?

I think I would really love more participants, and more people who are talented and expressive and WANT to participate who I don't have to chase down.

Do you have any advice for artists seeking to start similar collectives?

Just do it. Nobody's going to give you a damned thing in this world. We're fortunate enough to have something good enough to get the attention of people and to keep it fresh so people keep coming back.

Do you think of yourself more as an artist or as an entrepreneur?

I don't consider myself an artist and I'm certainly a crappy entrepreneur. I can't seem to quit four jobs and stop living from paycheck to paycheck.

Was starting Brainwashed your way of becoming Involved in and problem solving within the scene?

I've always been involved in the scene from a young age. I've been DJing since 13, and working in record stores and record labels in Boston and NYC. Brainwashed has been an amazing platform to do what I want to do without having to answer to a larger corporation. I meet people in major labels here and there and I was there once. Some of these people have such a snotty attitude and think they're hot shit, but, in actuality every single one of them is completely replaceable. I'm constantly looking for replacements for my jobs but can't find them at all! You tell me at the end of the day who's going to feel better about what they do.

So what happens if you can't find replacements for all the jobs you do?

Then things suffer from lack of up-to-date information. I'm still trying to install a database-driven backbone with content management tools for people to make updates and changes for themselves.

Do you feel that originality in music is on the decline?

As for the "is art going to shit" question, that's always a statement from an old fart who too fucking lazy to bother to look for new stuff. People say "rock and roll is dead," well, if they're only blindly accepting the music on the radio, Entertainment Tonight, and VHI of course it is, but there's plenty of awesome stuff ALWAYS being created. We live in a great time artistically and it only gets better. People have a sort of misconception that there's some magical force that brings music to them or brings their music to the world. We are all responsible for that.

Why are people not looking hard enough for good media anymore? Do you consider this period in history a downtime, or have we just been duped into thinking so?

We live in the Target Generation: a world that tries to make everything convenient for us. Intelligent people need to reject that at every cost and try their hardest not to be a mindless automaton or a statistic.

What is your opinion of the recent FCC [Federal Communications Commission] deregulations? Besides greatly decreasing the diversity of music played, does this have far-reaching consequences for artists in the future? Is this the beginning of a "slippery slope"?

Well, there's little we can do to stop some of these things from happening. AmeriKKKa will always support the almighty dollar and whoever lines the politicians' campaign pockets will in the end benefit the most. The people who are angry about it need to combat it with their own alternatives. Spreading the awesome music is a responsibility we all have. Start something like The Brain or pirate radio, make mix tapes, meet people, get support, build your own network of alternative choices. Didn't your mom teach you to share???

How about your opinion of the RIAA [Recording Industry of American Artists] and programs like Napster and KaZaA (programs for illegal music file-sharing)? Are you pro-Napster?

The RIAA is a beast just fighting to stay alive. The genie is out of the bottle already and there's nothing they can stop about it. About 25 years ago they were all up in arms again about the dual-recording tape decks. They thought this would kill music, but it didn't. When they file lawsuits and launch large campaigns, they're hurting so many people. It's expensive and it takes away money from the artists and to support bands and tours. I don't know any record label employee who makes a living wage or any major label artist with health benefits. However, the fat lawyers and RIAA execs seem to pocket a bundle. I look forward to the day they're all on the dole and have to sell their houses like MC Hammer. The greedy sons of bitches do nothing but steal from the artists, themselves, and truly deserve the worst.

What then is the Ideal role of government in regulating media of all types? Should music be controlled differently than say, the press? How does this come into play with the First Amendment?

The First Amendment is a clear separation of church and state and provides free speech for individual citizens. It was not written with corporations and operating procedures in mind, and I strongly think corporations need to be regulated to protect the citizens. Corporations should not be funding political campaigns and special interest groups, I suppose with this said, I could be saying that record companies can be regulated and artists cannot. Everybody is his or her own company these days so the answer is so vague. I don't know. This is a lengthy debate and I'm open to change my mind on positions.

If domination of media by corporations is somewhat inevitable (as far as print, airwaves, television), do you see the Internet eventually succumbing as well? Obviously there are already many signs of this but do you think the future of the internet (and technology in general) will be parceled out to the highest bidder, like radio? Or will the technology itself always have a loophole in it (like hackers) that can subvert this power?

There are too many warriors to let the internet succumb. I think it will always be a free exchange. There may have been a time about 10 years ago where it might have been uncomfortably close to being privatized but there's too many ways that it won't happen at this point.

Could one link all of the Brainwashed artists together in some way, other than their Inclusion on the page? Is there an underlying purpose other than the representation of underrepresented artists?

No, I really can't. There are some sites which came together simultaneously and were imported simultaneously due to their relationship to each other--Current 93/Death In June/Nurse With Wound/Organum-but that's all for that. I mean, you can draw links to pretty much everybody on Brainwashed. Legendary Pink Dots and Nurse With Wound knew each other in the 1970s before either had a band, they've shared albums and productions, Nurse With Wound is related to Current 93, who's related to Coil, who's had a track remixed by Meat Beat Manifesto, who's had a track remixed by Luke Vibert, who's done a remix for Tortoise, who's produced Trans Am, who's toured with Panasonic ... I mean, you can draw connections all over the place, but there's no one underlying theme or connection.

But does the use of electronic devices by most Brainwashed bands signify just a new experimental trend in music, or does it have more to do with a sense of using technology to be reactionary against our society or at least present in our society? Do you think there is a theory lurking behind all this Brainwashed stuff somewhere? Forty years from now, when I am a dried-up old academic, can I write a book on the Brainwashed bands and their sociological import? Or Is that line of thinking just misguided?

I can see a similarity now, actually. Pretty much all of the bands on brainwashed misuse technology. In other words, they aren't using preset programs, they aren't following the instruction manuals, they aren't easily satisfied with making music by numbers. That's the reason why this stuff will never be pop music. That's the reason why it attracts so many people with actively thinking minds to the music: it's not easily digestible; it's not paint-by-numbers; there is an unwritten, underlying ideal going on here I think. No, you were on to something. Throbbing Gristle weren't satisfied with what store-bought technology afforded them. Nor is Coil satisfied with what preset computer manipulative sounds will get them. Nor were Tortoise willing to be a standard rock band in an Indie-rock arena. Nor is Annie Anxiety going to sing Britney Spears bubblegum. Nor is Diamanda Galas going to do a spiritual the way it was written in the music books.

Emerging artists most frequently complain to me about a lack of venue for both art and music. Is the internet, and pages like Brainwashed, the solution to this? Should they be?

It's not a solution. Persistence is a solution. As the industry changes, people need to change their ways of operating. People need to make better usage of their time and energies and make more sacrifices to make better music. In addition, they need to work hard and play as much as they can and if they're good enough AND they persist, things will happen for them.

SUZANNE BESTLER, a recent graduate of Colgate Unviversity's art program, hopes to pursue a future in postmodern art criticism.