Online Discussions: A Survey of Advantages and Disadvantages Compared to Face-to-Face Discussions.

Class listervs are widely used at the university level to supplement inclass discussion. What are the inherent advantages and disadvantages in the online discussion experience? How favorably do these online experiences compare to their face-to-face counterparts? Survey data from graduate students involved in online discussions indicates positive reactions to most aspects of the experience, even those elements that clearly differ from the face-to-face experience. However, when given a choice, students still indicated a preference for face-to-face experiences. Online discussions were perceived as a valuable addition to in-class discussions, rather than as an acceptable substitution for them.

In a growing number of college classes across the country, instructors are using electronic communications to augment in-class discussion with an ongoing, online dialogue between students about class-related topics. A number of articles have reported on the use of e-mail and listservs as a supplement to the teaching of a college course (Doring, 1996; Gamas & Nordquist, 1997; Hansen & Gladfelter, 1996). In other cases, the electronic discussions have been part of a distance education effort and constituted the primary means of communication between instructors and students (Lewis, Treves, & Shaindlin, 1997; Muffoletto, 1997; Talley, 1997). Some authors have proposed specific models for effectively designing and conducting online discussion experiences (Martin & Taylor, 1997; Schrum, 1995).

Most of these articles have provided anecdotal descriptions of instructor experiences with using listservs in their classes. Only a few articles have reported actual research studies wherein data was collected to gauge student reactions to online discussions. The findings of these types of studies generally have shown that students have favorable reactions to their experiences with electronic discussions. Hesser and Kontos (1995) conducted a survey of 25 students involved in the distance education-based doctoral program at Nova Southeastern University. Given a choice of alternatives, respondents found electronic mail to be their most popular communication choice. Zhu (1996) documented successful patterns of knowledge construction stemming from electronic discussion, held as part of college coursework taught at a distance. Powers and Mitchell (1997) conducted a qualitative study of an Internet-based graduate course. One of their conclusions was that online communications enhanced levels of rapport between stu dents.

This article describes the findings of a study that collected survey data from college students who discussed a given set of topics, both online and face-to-face, over the course a semester. This study was designed mainly to examine specific differences between an online discussion and its face-to-face counterpart. What are the critical differences between each mode of discourse? What are the advantages and disadvantages associated with each of the two types of discussion? How did subjects feel about their online discussion experiences and which type of discussion did they prefer? Were there specific aspects of the online experience which were particularly problematic or especially successful?

The Development of an Online Discussion Survey

The survey used in this study was developed by the author, based upon his experiences in conducting a listserv discussion in a college class. The survey was created with the advice from this class of graduate students in an IT program. The issues that arose during that experience with an electronic discussion were discussed at length during several class sessions. Interesting, relevant comparisons were made between the electronic discussions that took place over the course of each week and the face-to-face discussion that took place in the classroom on the same topic. The group explored the advantages and disadvantages of each type of experience. Various issues were identified. The instructor prepared a survey to examine reactions to these issues, based upon the issues that emerged from the class experience. Before completing the survey, the class reacted to it, helping to clarify its wording and design. Several questions were then modified, and two were omitted because they were considered redundant. The su rvey was used in this class and thereafter in a series of classes that also used a listserv discussion in nearly identical fashion, as part of their class experiences.

Four critical aspects of the online discussion emerged during the development of the survey. The four elements that were felt to distinguish, most definitively, the online discussion experience from its face-to-face counterpart are summarized in Figure 1. It is these four issues that are explored in the 20-item Online Discussion Survey.

Perhaps the most obvious difference between the two types of discussions is the technical element involved in electronic discussions. To what degree do the technical demands placed upon participants to get online interfere with their involvement? Another important difference is in the timing with which the discussions are conducted. A listserv discussion is asynchronous. Participation can occur at any time, over a lengthier time frame, with sequence possibly a less significant issue. This may be convenient, but the delays between responses may weaken the discussion. A third critical difference is that listserv contributions are written, rather than spoken. How does this difference in mode of expression affect participants involvement and appreciation of the discussion experience? Writing can be more precise, and its permanence may be helpful for review purposes. However, writing is more time consuming and cannot communicate the nuances of the human voice, which can convey the tone of the conversation. Finall y, the visual cues involved in a face-to-face discussion are largely lost in the online experience. Keyboard symbols that represent faces [ : ) ] , sometimes called "emoticons," can substitute somewhat for facial expressions. However, are these sufficient to communicate the range of conversational subtleties normally associated with expressions, gestures, and body language?

The study was conducted in the following manner. The 20-item Online Discussion Survey (Table 2) was administered to five graduate level classes in the IT program of a Midwestern university, over a period of two years. The original survey was used throughout the study without alteration. Two different courses were involved: Distance Education and Instructional Applications of the Internet. The procedures associated with the online discussion experiences in all five of these classes were held consistent.

The instructor set up a listserv on the university mainframe computer, specifically for his class. Students were required to participate at least five times during the course of the semester in listserv-based discussions on topics established each week during class time. Each week, the instructor referred to the listserv discussion in class, reacting to comments made over the course of that week and suggesting a line of discussion for the following week, to which the class would then agree or perhaps modify. The instructor did not actively moderate the online discussion during the week between classes. He only participated online occasionally, usually to clarify some confusion that had arisen. Listserv discussions were held for 10 straight weeks during the semester so that the minimal requirements to participate involved sending a message about once every other week. The instructor kept an ongoing record of each student's number of contributions, which was made available to the class each week. At the end of the online discussion, each student was given a letter grade for participation in the online discussion, based upon both the number of contributions and their quality. This grade constituted 10% of their final course grade. At the conclusion of the 10-week long listserv discussion experience, the Online Survey questionnaire was completed. Sixty-six of the 68 students who were enrolled in these five classes returned the survey, and all 20 survey items were completed on each of the forms which were returned.

Three preliminary items were included in the Online Discussion Survey to assess the degree of experience that subjects had with electronic communications. Table 1 summarizes the subjects' responses to these items. For each of the actual 20 survey items, there was a statement about online discussions, followed by a Likert scale with five choices: strongly agree, agree, neutral, disagree, and strongly disagree. Subjects were asked to circle one of these five choices, indicating their reaction to the statement. The results of this part of the survey can be found in Table 2, which summarizes reactions to all 20 by averaging Likert scale responses, using the following weighting system: strongly agree = +2, agree = +1, neutral = 0, disagree = -1, and strongly disagree = -2. Obviously, the more positive the mean score obtained, the more strongly that subjects agreed with the statement, and vice versa for negative scores.

In addition, at the end of the questionnaire, there were two statements: "I like these aspects of an electronic discussion group more than a face-to-face discussion," and, "I dislike these aspects of an electronic discussion group more than a face-to-face discussion." Following these last two statements was some space for subjects to write their comparisons of the two different discussion experiences. Sample responses were provided to give the reader a more detailed, descriptive sense of how these students felt about their online experience.

Was the Class Listserv a User-Friendly Experience?

Requiring online discussion in college classes can be problematic if students find the experience too difficult or inconvenient. How difficult was it for participants in this study to establish connections and work with an email system? One factor that might impact survey results on this issue was the amount of experience that participants already had online.

The first two preliminary items were designed to assess the amount of experience that the subjects of this study had with online communications. Responses to the first item indicated that almost two-thirds of the subjects had a considerable degree of experience using e-mail. Only five of the 66 subjects had never used e-mail before. So this group of subjects needed very little training in how to send their comments to the class listserv. In fact, as indicated in the next item, most of them had already previously subscribed to a listserv, and half of that number had participated in more than two listservs. Consequently, very little orientation regarding the listserv experience was necessary. The third preliminary item sought to determine how convenient it was for subjects to participate in the online discussion. Most students had e-mail capability at home, so they could easily access their classmates' messages and respond to them online. These survey responses indicated that inexperience with online communica tions and the inconvenience associated with it were unlikely to be significant impediments for most of the subjects involved in the study.

The first three survey items (Table 2) followed up on the issue of how easy it was for subjects to participate in the online discussion. On item 1, most participants disagreed that it was "inconvenient" to get online. This response is consistent with the previous indication that most subjects had email capability at home. On item 2, most also disagreed that they experienced technical problems associated with attempting to use e-mail. Obviously, however, some technical difficulties occurred, since the level of disagreement was not particularly strong. On item 3, there was strong agreement that once subjects were connected online, it was easy to work with email. These survey responses indicate that the majority of this group of subjects found online communications to be a rather "user-friendly" experience.

Is Asynchronicity Advantageous or Aggravating?

One of the ways in which an online listserv discussion differs significantly from a face-to-face discussion is that it happens "asynchronously." People often respond to one another online at a later time, sometimes even days later. Participants can read and react on their own schedule. The next set of survey items examined subjects' feelings about this asynchronous aspect of the online discussion group experience.

On item 4, subjects nearly unanimously indicated that they liked the convenience associated with asynchronicity very much. On item 5, they also nearly unanimously agreed that having time to think about how to respond to other students' comments was a positive feature of the listserv experience. Clearly, asynchronicity has its advantages.

However, are there also disadvantages associated with it? Is there a loss of spontaneity when interaction does not occur immediately, and is this a significant issue in discussion? There were mixed reactions to these issues. On item 6, a slight majority of the subjects disagreed that spontaneity was lost to a significant degree in asynchronous mode. Consistent with this response, item 7 indicated, by a small margin, subjects disagreed that a lack of spontaneous interaction was a "serious weakness" of online discussions. But this support for the potential effectiveness of online approach was not especially strong.

Another potential problem associated with asynchronous discussions was the potential for participants to get off topic. With time lags, students can more easily lose track of what the focus of the discussion was supposed to be about. Items 8 and 9 examined this issue. As with the previous two survey items, there was less agreement between subjects here than there was in some other sections of the survey. On item 8, a small majority disagreed that the online discussion was "less focused" than a face-to-face discussion. On item 9, another marginal majority disagreed that they were confused about the order in which comments had been submitted. So these online discussions were judged to have mostly remained on topic, and the amount of confusion about who was reacting to whom was not substantial.

What's Right or Wrong with Writing?

Normally, we associate discussion with talking. Yet, an online discussion obviously involves writing, not speaking. How does this fundamental aspect of the online discussion affect its participants? The next four items on the survey explored this issue. On item 10, a majority of subjects agreed that they appreciated the fact that, in an online discussion, you can more carefully articulate your ideas in writing than you could by verbalizing them. So this seemed a distinct advantage associated with contributing a comment in written form.

Listserv comments remain in a person's electronic mailbox until they are deleted. If a discussion participant chooses to leave comments in memory storage, they are available for review. Are there advantages to having this kind of written record of discussion comments? On item 11, there was strong agreement among subjects that this characteristic of an online discussion was helpful. In fact, an almost equally strong percentage of respondents claimed on item 12 that they looked back through the written record to review comments that had been made earlier, before responding online. The easy referencing of writing seems to be another plus associated with electronic discussion.

Are there disadvantages associated with written expression, like the time and effort it may take to write down a thought, as opposed to just saying it? There were mixed survey responses to this issue. On item 13, there was a split reaction, with a small majority disagreeing that they would prefer to speak than write. So, a significant number did prefer writing to speaking.

The Role of Visual Cues and Physical Presence

Another obvious difference between a text-based listserv discussion and a face-to-face exchange is the complete lack of visual cues for the individuals involved in the online experience. Is this an important deficiency? The next set of survey items explored this issue.

Did subjects feel that visual cues are important in a discussion? On item 14, a strong majority agreed that "body language" and "facial expressions" were important forms of communication. So one might expect that, on subsequent survey items, the absence of these visual cues might be considered a significant weakness of the electronic discussion. However, on the next item, subjects disagreed with one another about this issue. On item 16, a tiny majority actually disagreed that the loss of visual cues is a disadvantageous aspect of the online discussion. So, there appears to be some inconsistency in these two sets of responses. If this group feels nonverbal cues are important, why do they not consider their absence in the online discussion a significant issue? This apparent contradiction will be discussed in the final section of this article.

Did the absence of others during an electronic discussion encourage participants to be less inhibited about being controversial or confrontational in their remarks. Presumably, if you do not have to "face" the other person when you contradict them, you may be more willing to do so. Interestingly, some people feel that this is the case. A very small majority agreed that this was true for them, on item 16. A related issue was whether electronic discussion participants missed the encouragement that other participants can provide in a face-to-face situation. Again, results on the survey were mixed, and almost one-quarter of all respondents chose "neutral." A very small majority indicated on item 17 that they did not miss the "affective" component of a face-to-face discussion. This did not appear to be a significant issue.

For some, speaking in a group situation is difficult, because of insecurities about how they will sound. Is it easier for some people to join an online discussion than to speak up in front of a group? On item 18, while 30 subjects indicated that this was not so, 21 subjects agreed that this was true for them. While not the rule, some people are more comfortable with online exchanges than face-to-face encounters.

The final two survey items asked general questions about the degree to which the participants appreciated the online discussion experience. On item 19, a clear majority indicated that they "enjoyed" the electronic discussion (only 6 respondents of 66 indicated they did not). So obviously this approach to encouraging further discussion outside of class is popular with graduate students in the field of Instructional Technology.

But would they prefer an online discussion to a face-to-face discussion? A majority indicated on item 20 that they did not. This item had a large number of subjects selecting the "neutral" response (almost one-quarter did so). Among those who expressed a preference, however, slightly over three times as many disagreed as agreed with the statement that they "prefer" an electronic discussion. So, as much as they enjoyed the online experience, only a minority would choose it in lieu of a face-to-face discussion.

Anecdotal Reactions

As mentioned at the beginning of this article, comments were solicited from subjects at the end of the survey, with two open-ended items: "I like these aspects of an electronic discussion group more than a face-to-face discussion," and, "I dislike these aspects of an electronic discussion group more than a face-to-face discussion." The majority of surveys included some brief responses within the two open spaces provided for comments. For the most part, these remarks were highly consistent with the reactions to the 20 items on the previous portion of the survey. Sample comments are provided here, in the same sequence with which issues were raised on those Likert-scale items.

What aspects of the electronic discussion did subjects like? The "convenience of online use (when one has the time)" was mentioned, along with the ability to "get online when I want." Other subjects mentioned appreciating the "time to consider an appropriate response" and the "time to compose your response," given the asynchronous nature of the online discussion. The written, rather than spoken nature of the electronic discussion was addressed by several comments. One said, "You can refer back to it," and another commented, "I liked being able to re-read classmates' comments." Finally, there was "an ability to review what was written and respond." Another subject commented that "the written interchange can be more in depth at times." Some indicated on item 18 that they were less inhibited online, and one subject wrote that the listserv was a "forum to float new, even controversial, ideas." Despite the lack of visual cues, one appreciated the "ability to get to know others by their writing style and thoughts. " Several appreciated the way the listserv provided "extended time to discuss topics, beyond class time." And one commented, "I like that you can continue discussions that were started in class (rather) than having to wait until the next meeting."

What aspects of the electronic discussion did subjects dislike? One person noted that the experience was "inconvenient for me since I do not have a computer at home." Another disliked "the sheer volume of messages." One participant felt "a lack of spontaneous interaction at both the topic and social level," and another said, "I miss the spontaneity of a face-to-face discussion" Along the same lines, one remarked, "I miss the challenge of quick thinking in response to discussion." Another said that it was "in general, harder to establish momentum in the discussions." The problem with tangential contributions was raised. One noted the "disjointed conversation," and another admitted, "I find myself sharing information online, but not actually sticking to a certain topic." One subject indicated, "I would enjoy the intervention of a moderator to keep the discussion on track." Several missed the visual cues of face-to-face discussion. One said, "Sometimes, it is hard to visualize to whom you are talking," and anot her remarked on the "difficulty of attributing a comment to which classmate's face." Another missed "the inability to gather meaning based on tone of voice, body language, and facial expressions.

The Strengths and Weaknesses of Online Discussions

The results of this survey provide some perspectives on the advantages and disadvantages of online discussion compared to its face-to-face counterpart. To what aspects of electronic communications were most positively responded by the participants in this study, and which characteristics were seen as problematic?

One potential problem that surrounds efforts to conduct electronic discussions is the technical demands associated with getting set up. It requires the use of some computer equipment, software, and connections. Some people may not have these resources at home, so participating in an online discussion becomes quite problematic for them. However, as this equipment becomes less expensive, and online services become more widely available at reasonable costs, more students will be able to participate in online discussion from their homes. These barriers are becoming less and less significant.

Another potential problem is an overloaded online system, wherein it is very difficult to make connections with your e-mail account because all the lines are busy. There was a period, during this study, where this became a problem with university accounts. However, the system was soon upgraded so that it could handle the volume of online exchanges that had developed within the university system. In addition, the use of POP mailers, which do not tie up the system for very long, has helped alleviate these kinds of connection problems.

The subjects in this study did not find the technical demands associated with online activities to be a significant impediment. Nor were ongoing technical difficulties a significant problem. To some extent, these findings may reflect the nature of the group of subjects involved in the study. One might expect that this particular group of participants, whose major was instructional technology, would likely be far more computer-literate than the average group of graduate students. However, even online novices in this study indicated that they had little difficulty in obtaining messages and sending comments to the listserv. This survey clearly indicates, especially after users have made the necessary connections, that working with e-mail is very user-friendly.

One important way in which online discussions differ from face-to-face experiences is that they occur in a delayed, asynchronous fashion, rather than within a given, set time frame. Students responded positively to this asynchronous aspect of these online class discussions. It allowed them to participate at their own convenience when they had the time to read the comments and the time to develop their own responses. There was also time to think about the points made by their peers and time to decide how they felt about certain issues. This self-regulated, self-paced quality of the listserv experience was one of its most attractive features. Furthermore, the potential problems that might be associated with asynchronicity did not become critical issues. For the most part, discussions were not widely perceived as lacking spontaneity or excessively disjointed because of the delays between listserv contributions. Those who felt that these issues were significantly problematic were in the minority.

Another characteristic of online discussion, to which was quite positively responded in these survey results, was the use of the written word. Every respondent agreed that a written record of the class comments was helpful to have, and nearly everyone indicated that they re-read some listserv contributions for review and reflection. The majority of participants appreciated the fact that written communication generally allows for more careful articulation of ideas than does the spoken word (which offers little opportunity for revision or refinement).

Also, the potential disadvantages associated with writing, rather than speaking, were not considered to be serious drawbacks. For example, although some indicated that they regretted the amount of time it took to write their remarks for the listserv, they were a minority. Perhaps these results might be expected from graduate students, whose writing skills are generally better than the average individual's.

One potentially limited aspect of the listserv discussion is its lack of visual cues. In a face-to-face encounter, the fact that participants can see each other may affect their levels of motivation, their amount of anxiety, or the degree to which they feel they are effectively communicating. As acknowledged by participants in this study, non-verbal cues can be important in any effort to communicate. Nevertheless, not being able to see their fellow participants was not perceived as a significant problem by a majority of survey respondents. In fact, some felt this allowed them to express themselves in a less inhibited fashion.

One reason for these reactions might be that, unlike other types of listserv experiences, this group saw each other once a week in class. As a result, they could place a face with an online remark. Another factor may have been that the type of communication involved in this discussion was information-based and theory-oriented, so facial expressions and gestures may not have been as relevant as they can be with other types of communication (like exchanges of a personal nature, for example, where the emotional element is far more significant).

What final conclusions can we draw from these findings about the listserv experience, as it is used to supplement class discussion in graduate level coursework? The participants in this study favorably perceived certain features of the online discussion experience as a communication form, most notably the asynchronous aspect and the use of the written word. Potential drawbacks, like technical barriers and a lack of visual cues, were not perceived as significant disadvantages. Subjects felt positively about their online discussion experiences. However, they did not, for the most part, actually prefer it to face-to-face discussion. So with these students, online discussion was preferred as an addition to face-to-face dialogue, not as a substitution for it.

The results of this study seem highly supportive of the use of online discussion as a way of enriching graduate work in higher education. The author continues to use listservs in nearly all his courses (except for those which stress the semester). The class seems more cohesive and involved when this added opportunity to interact is provided. Based upon his experiences and student reactions on these surveys, he strongly recommend sthe use of a class listserv, as a way of enriching any discussion-oriented course.

References

Doring, A. (1996). The use of electronic mail to support off-campus student learning. Report for Queensland Education Commission, Australia. (ERIC Document Reproduction No. ED 401 876)

Gamas, W., & Nordquist, N. (1997). Expanding learning opportunities through online technology. NASSP Bulletin, 8(592), 16-22.

Hansen, N., & Gladfelter, J. (1996). Teaching graduate psychology seminars using electronic mail: Creative distance education. Teaching of Psychology, 23(4), 252-56.

Hesser, L., & Kontos, G. (1995). Technology and graduate education: Applications in a master's and doctoral program. Paper presented at the International Conference in Distance Education, San Jose, Costa Rica. (ERIC Document Reproduction No. ED 389 273)

Lewis, D., Treves, J., & Shaindlin, A. (1997). Making sense of academic cyberspace: Case study of an electronic classroom. College Teaching, 45(3), 96-100.

Martin, M., & Taylor, S. (1997). The virtual classroom: The next steps. Educational Technology, 37(5), 51-55.

Muffoletto, R. (1997). Reflections on designing and producing an Internet-based course, Techtrends, 42(2), 50-53.

Powers, S., & Mitchell, J. (1997). Student perceptions and performance in a virtual classroom environment. Paper presented at the annual meeting of the American Educational Research Association, Chicago, IL. (ERIC Document Reproduction No. ED 409 005)

Schrum, L. (1995). Online courses: What have we learned? Paper presented to the World Conference of Computers in Education, Birmingham, England. (ERIC Document Reproduction No. ED 385 245)

Talley, S. (1997). EdTech does it online at Pepperdine University. T.H.E. Journal, 24(10), 69-71.

Zhu, E. (1996). Meaning negotiation, knowledge construction, and mentoring in a distance learning course. Presentation at the national convention of the Association for Educational Communications and Technology, Indianapolis, IN. (ERIC Document Reproduction No. ED 397 849)

Subjects' Experiences with Online Communications

Rate your level of experience with electronic mail (e-mail):

first time = 5

used before = 6

use occasionally =14

use often = 41

Have you subscribed to a listserv before?

never = 26

once or twice = 21

more than twice = 19

Where did you mostly get online, during this experience with an electronic discussion group?

my university = 19

another institution = 8

home = 39

                     Online Discussion Survey Results
   Averaged overall responses to items based upon the following ratings:
       strongly agree = +2, agree = +1, not sure = 0, disagree = -1,
                          strongly disagree = -2
Rating Item Comment
 -.68   1.  Getting online was inconvenient for me.
 -.58   2.  Some technical problems occurred when I
            attempted to use e-mail.
+1.26   3.  Once I am into my account, I find it easy
            to work with e-mail.
+1.58   4.  I liked the fact that I could read and
            respond to the electronic discussion group at
            a time that was convenient.
+1.58   5.  I liked the fact that I could take as much time
            as I wanted to think about other student comments.
 -.23   6.  In general, the asynchronous nature of the
            electronic discussion group robbed the
            experience of the spontaneity associated with
            face-to-face discussion.
 -.38   7.  I feel that the lack of spontaneous interaction
            is a serious weakness of online discussion
            (compared with face-to-face discussion).
 -.23   8.  The electronic online discussion was less
            focused than a typical face-to-face discussion,
            in that the discussion often went on a tangent.
 -.38   9.  Keeping track of the order in which online
            contributions were made was somewhat
            problematic for me.
 +.91  10.  One thing I like about electronic discussions is
            that, because it is writing rather than speaking,
            you can carefully articulate your thoughts,
            exactly the way you want them to sound.
+1.18  11.  With the electronic discussion group, it was
            helpful to have a written record of remarks to
            refer back to.
+1.03  12.  I re-read some comments from the electronic
            discussion group, to review what had been
            said by particular parties.
 -.21  13.  One thing I dislike about e-mail is the time it
            takes to write responses. I would rather speak
            with someone, than write to them.
+1.27  14.  Non-verbal cues, like body language and facial
            expressions, can be important elements of a
            communications experience.
 -.09  15.  The fact that you cannot see your fellow
            discussion participants in an electronic
            discussion group is a disadvantageous aspect
            of this experience.
+.09 16. Because others were not really present,
         I felt more inclined to express what
         I really thought in the electronic
         discussion, even if my remarks
         were controversial or confrontational.
-.15 17. On an electronic discussion group, I
         miss the affective component associated
         with a face-to-face discussion.
-.24 18. Since I am sometimes shy about speaking
         out in group discussions, I found
         participation easier in an electronic
         discussion group than in a face-toface
         session.
+.95 19. I enjoyed the electronic discussion group
         experience.
-.36 20. I prefer an electronic discussion group
         to a face-to-face discussion.
                    Key Differences between online and
                         face-to-face discussions
Issue                 Online    Face-to-Face
Access             technology   no technology
Timing             asynchronous synchronous
Mode of expression written      spoken
Visual cues        emoticons    expression, gestures, etc.