Marcelo Ebrard: Mexico City's Public Security Secretary talks about crime, corruption and community participation. (15 Minutes With).

Marcelo Ebrard's appointment to lead Mexico City's Public Security Secretariat (SSP) in February 2002 was born of controversy, following his predecessor Leonel Godoy's resignation after only a short time in office to join fellow Democratic Revolution Party (PRD) members in the Michoacan state government. This resignation came only two weeks after the city's No. 2 SSP official resigned, raising serious questions about Mexico City Mayor Andres Manuel Lopez Obrador's commitment to a long-term anti-crime strategy.

A legislator from the Democratic Center Party, at the time leading congressional investigations into government corruption, Ebrard was viewed as a non-partisan compromise between the Mexico City and Federal governments. Ebrard spoke to BUSINESS MEXICO about his plans for reducing crime, which opinion polls indicate is the highest priority for citizens.

What can you tell us about the new Undersecretary of Citizen Participation?

We need to have ever-growing citizen participation, and in order to achieve good results we need to have a police force that is close to citizens. We have to approach business organizations, social groups and sports clubs. Before, no area existed that was dedicated to trying to relate to the community, or to the development of a performance evaluation system. So, we're just starting with this, but it's the direction we're going in.

What exactly do you mean by relating to the community?

This means developing a police force that is close to them, to develop a system whereby (citizens) evaluate the service we provide, something that currently does not happen, except for very general surveys. So, what we're doing is asking people to evaluate the police service within their immediate area. Simply saying that the police are bad gets us nowhere. This program has already begun in the Gustavo Madero district. The questionnaire has been designed and is being implemented on a quarterly basis. There are 10 questions. You take them home and this information can be easily processed. We will eventually do this in the whole city.

Stronger highway security has reportedly brought down cargo theft by about 50%, leading robbers to focus their heists on city streets. What has your administration done to combat this new trend?

We've just begun a pilot program with the textile industry. We're escorting their trucks (to the city limits), 800 so far, and not one of them has been held up. I also recently signed an agreement with Concamin (the Mexican Confederation of Industrial Chambers), and we're going to be working together with other industrial chambers, such as the confectionery industry, which suffers a lot from this.

We also have plans for producers bringing their goods into the city for sale. The idea is to not only exchange information but to set up a security network that will enable a much faster police response.

We've come to realize that there are usually people working inside the firm who are involved. We've also begun to uncover other information, such as who "places the order" for (the goods stolen in) the heist, and how and where certain goods are eventually sold.

So we've been open to working with all areas of the commercial and industrial sectors to fight this crime together.

Tell us about the so-called "secure" routes for cargo trucks in the city.

Yes, there are some routes that we have secured well, and one thing that we're doing with the types of agreements I've just referred to is organize deliveries at times when police surveillance is highest. We're also working with Canacintra, and hope to be able to work with the AMERICAN CHAMBER or COMMERCE OF MEXICO on this in late September.

What is being done about police corruption?

For a long time, it has been the case that the cost of being a corrupt officer is relatively low. This is partly because there has not been a tradition of investigation by authorities into these cases, and therefore there hasn't been a culture of citizens denouncing these crimes. But another reason is that the law is too complex. In order to sanction a police officer, a long process has to be undertaken, and evidence has to be presented. So what's being done now? A department for internal processes has been created. And what we're trying to do is investigate each and every charge brought against officers, and corrupt officers have already been called on to declare before public prosecutors.

At the same time we're also increasing the incentives for those who work honestly. What we intend to do by this is to gradually change the rules of the game. My hypothesis is that if you change the rules of the game, most officers will follow these rules. The new rules are that we will investigate them if there is evidence of corruption.

What's the going rate for renting a patrol car?

It varies. We've just fired two commanders because they were charging (their subordinates) 300 pesos (per shift) for renting patrol cars.

But we can't get rid of this from one day to the next. Again, we have to change the rules of the game, the incentives.

What's happening here is that those who do their job well are neglected. For example, if you're a hard-working honest policeman and you arrest a criminal, you spend six hours declaring at the prosecutors office, then you have to go and declare at the penitentiary, and by then you could be threatened by the criminals, and in the end nothing happens. You don't get promoted, you don't get merit points for you actions. That's the main problem: The incentives are devised so that it's better for you play with the other team.

How would an ordinary citizen go about denouncing a corrupt officer?

There are many ways, one of them is by dialing 060, another is my Saturday morning radio program that lasts two hours, and soon, on our Internet page.

What incentives are being provided in order to change this?

This is going to be a major reform process, and its going to take us at least a year. But the incentives are now the following: First of all, a series of police medal awards (for outstanding duty), which lead to promotion and cash incentives. Promotion now depends on whether you've had any charges or complaints brought against you, and whether you've done your job well. And all this is now based on a system with clear rules determined by a commission, and not on whether you might have the right friends or not.

Another thing we're doing is a survey of officers' families, and the reason for this is so we can take greater care of officers' families than we have done in the past. This is another incentive against corruption because it means that they don't have to worry about their families' well-being. If I were a good cop, the most important thing for me would not be a medal, but that the health and education of my children be guaranteed. Another thing we want to do is provide police officers with lawyers to represent them when they get involved in cases. This will require an investment in the budget and many other things.

Next, starting in September we have a system of cash incentives for the officers involved in the Insurgentes traffic campaign who are doing their job well. The Insurgentes operation has seen a very favorable response, and all we're doing is trying to follow the rules that we ourselves have set. Perhaps the greatest problem we have in terms of traffic control in Mexico City is that the rules aren't respected.

These rules have been designed for our benefit, but have somehow become blurred in their implementation, so we have to try and make them a reality.

What are the new requirements for potential Mexico City police recruits?

What we want by next year is to have another 8,000 officers on the streets in addition to those we have today. Mexico City's problem has been that it has had the same number of policemen for the last 10 years, while the number of criminals has increased.

To prepare these new police officers, we're undertaking a huge recruitment drive. We want all of them to have completed highschool, to be between the ages of 18 and 21, and for them to sign a much stricter contract than those of our older officers, because the incentives for (the recruits) will be much greater in the future. The training academy is also now being directed by an army general who used to direct Mexico's military academy.

Coordination between Federal District police and the State of Mexico and Federal police has traditionally been weak. Has this changed?

We're working closely with the State of Mexico and the Attorney General's office (PGR), and we've had a few good results. We recently caught a gang of kidnappers based in Ecatepec (State of Mexico) who committed their crimes over here (in the Federal District). We detected them here, but asked the PGR permission to arrest them there. And State of Mexico authorities have just dismantled a gang that was based in the (Mexico City) Narvarte neighborhood, and they let us know, so we supported them.

This must depend a lot on good will. What happens when different people are in office?

There are incentives for (cooperation efforts), regardless of who is in office. If you don't coordinate with State of Mexico and federal authorities, you're not going to get good results. I believe that the trend is to work more closely. We are involved in a project through which we want to reform the police force, but we also want to promote the rules of the game and make it more costly for crimes to be committed in Mexico City. So the rules have to be revised and the system has to be more efficient: If you arrest 100 criminals, those who actually end up in jail are very few, less than 10%. So we have to change the rules of the game, because if we keep them as they are we won't be able to beat these people. With an extra 8,000 officers on the street and a better system, we'd have better results.

Where do you stand regarding the ongoing dispute over security at banks?

The issue is that we currently have a self-regulated security system for banks. Hacienda (the Finance Secretariat), which has the authority, releases the norms that each bank follows when and if it wants to. But these norms are very lax and banks don't comply with them. In 20 years, Hacienda has never inspected banks to see whether they are complying with these norms or not. If you go to the bank today you'll see that security standards are lower than they were 10 years ago. The cameras are too old or don't work, there are no revolving doors and the cashiers windows are not bulletproof. This "up-to-you" system has now run its course.

So, there's a strong correlation between security norms and robberies. The Legislative Assembly of the Federal District (ALDF) recently issued a law saying that the banks must have cameras, revolving doors and security guards, and cannot allow the use of mobile phones. The banks then went to court to challenge this law, while the federal government also went to court, claiming that these matters fall under their jurisdiction. So that's were it stands. It depends on what the court decides. I believe this could be resolved in September and this is going to determine what happens. If they resolve in favor of the federal government, then the current self-regulatory system will remain and if they resolve in favor of the ALDF then (the banks) will have 60 days to comply, or else face sanctions.

Matthew Cower is editor of BUSINESS MEXICO.