MAKING A DIFFERENCE.

In an exclusive interview, 16-year-old Steven Cozza and his parents talk about their fight to end the Scouts' ban on gay members and the effect Steven's activism has had on their lives.

Steven Cozza was only 12 years old when he started Scouting for All, a group dedicated to overturning the Boy Scouts of America's prohibition on gay members. In the past four years, the group and Cozza have both grown. A new documentary, Scout's Honor, to be shown in June on PBS, chronicles Cozza's dedication to ending the Scouts' antigay policy over the years. At the heart of the documentary is Cozza's commitment to social justice, something he learned from his father, a social worker. Few other straight teenagers would be willing to risk the ostracism and backlash that Steven has because of his work for gay rights. His motivation stems in part from his respect for Robert Espindola, a camp counselor who is gay and whom Steven met at a church camp.

Cozza sat down with The Advocate at his home in Petaluma, Calif., one evening to discuss his activism. In most respects, he has the kind of interests that anyone would expect in a teenager. He is an avid cyclist (a framed autographed picture of champion cyclist Lance Armstrong sits on the living room coffee table), and he raises lizards to sell for extra money. His parents, Scott Cozza and Jeanette Ramacciotti-Cozza, a schoolteacher, joined in the interview when Steven turned to his homework assignment.

In the course of their conversation, the three of them outlined their commitment to their cause, the threats that they have endured because of it, and how all their lives have changed because of Steven's activism.

The Advocate: I was wondering when the moment was that you connected your friendship with Robert Espindola to the Scouts' policy.

Steven Cozza: Robert has always been a friend of our family. We met him at a church camp down in Santa Cruz [Calif.]. I've known him since I was probably 7, quite a while. He's been a great friend and a role model. He's one of the reasons why I've decided to take the stand against the Boy Scouts, because Robert is gay. He had been teaching me family values and about God and moral issues ever since I was 7. And here the Boy Scouts were talking about he's immoral. It turned me off.

Did you make the connection immediately between him and the Scouts' policy barring gay members?

Right away. I thought about all the gay people I knew. The Boy Scouts told me that it was immoral and wrong to be gay. I thought, Wait a minute, Robert is not wrong. That doesn't make sense. I definitely put his face to it right away. I couldn't see myself staying in the Boy Scouts and not doing anything about it. That would be like turning my back on my friends. So I had to take a stand.

At the start, you must not have imagined that it would get to this level.

No, not at all. I wrote a letter to our local newspaper--my first protest was that they don't follow their own Scout law when they discriminate. After that I just got hundreds of phone calls, positive and negative. I never thought it would get this big, but it did.

You were 12 when this started. A lot of kids your age go through a lot of different things. Why did you stick with this?

I haven't been constantly protesting. There are times when it gets really crazy, with lots of interviews and protesting going on, and then there are times when nothing's going on and every day is normal.

I guess the reason I stuck with it was that I felt so passionate about the issue. I felt so personally offended by the policy, and I'm also angered by their policy. Something that angers me and offends me, I don't want to give up on until they change it, because it sticks in the back of my mind knowing they still discriminate.

How has your understanding changed in the past four years?

I'm more knowledgeable about the issue. I remember I didn't know what diversity meant as much as I do now. I remember asking my dad what the rainbow meant. I thought it was representing all the different diseases out there, like the AIDS ribbon. It's kind of funny now.

What kind of experiences, good and bad, have you had?

The positive messages made up for the bad ones. The ones that are the worst are the phone calls that are death threats. I've gotten a few of those, and I can deal with them because I know what I'm doing is right. They're just doing that to scare me, and they'd never follow through. But I've also in school been called a fag, I've been called a queer, stuff like that--stupid, ignorant comments. I just say, go ahead, call me "fag." I can deal with it. There's nothing wrong with being gay, just like there's nothing wrong with being bisexual or straight. Whatever you call me is fine, as long as you don't physically hurt me. I kind of was sad about it, that there were kids in my school who would call me that or talk behind my back because of the stand I was taking. The name-calling didn't persist after eighth grade. And I started a gay-straight alliance, which has definitely helped. It's awesome now.

Is it easier for a straight kid to start a GSA than a gay kid?

I don't know, because the straight kid is going to get called names anyway. They're going to assume he's gay for starting it.

Have you gotten other kinds of grief--kids who don't want to deal with you or girls who don't want to go out with you?

At first it started out with a little bit of backlash. The homophobic people obviously disagreed with me, but overall it's been such a rewarding chance to help out other people.

How much have the Scouts prepared you to do what you're doing now?

I'm just doing what it says in the Scout oath and what they taught me, just to make the world a better place and to leave it better than we found it. When you're discriminating, you're not doing that at all.

Were things comfortable in your troop?

The kids didn't bug me or anything. Three of the parents were pretty homophobic, from Texas--I'm not saying that Texans are all homophobic, but they are from Texas [laughs]. They kind of gave us a hassle. They made it much harder for me to get my Eagle Scout [rank]. They asked my dad to leave the troop. Finally I got my Eagle. After that I left. I didn't want to deal with it anymore. I kind of miss scouting, though. It's a great program, but they discriminate.

What do you miss most about it?

I miss the outings and the camping trips. I can still do that with my family, but it was always fun to do that with a bunch of friends. It's cool. I miss that.

What's it like to see yourself in the documentary?

It's really hard, because it's from when I was way younger, smaller and [with a] screechy voice. It's totally a shock. I can't even remember things I did back then. Some of it's embarrassing--to see how I was, how stupid I was.

Stupid how?

I don't know. Just not as knowledgeable as now. It's odd to see myself back then. It's cool, though, to see myself on the line. Now I can see when people say, I can't believe you started at such a young age. When I look back, I was pretty young to be speaking like that.

Do you see yourself keeping on doing Scouting for All?

Definitely. Our new thing is the national campaign. Scouting for All is divided up into regions. When you go onto the Web site, you can click onto your region and find out what kind of events are going on in your area, who's the director. It's kind of like there are a bunch of Scouting for Alls all around the U.S. That was our big dream from when we started.

What role does your family play in all this?

My dad is the one who told me about the policy of discrimination. He said, "Hey, Steve, what do you think about this policy, do you want to do something about it? It's totally up to you." I was, "I don't know, Dad, it's a big commitment." It took me about a week to finally decide, yes, I wanted to, to write the letter to editor. They really support me. Thank God they did, because I would never have been able to do it without their support. They supported me, but they didn't push me. They gave me options, and I chose what ones I wanted to take. My sister also supported me. I was lucky to have good family support.

You must believe that the Scouts will change their policy at some point.

Definitely. We have tons of pressure on them. People are removing their sponsorship, they're losing money, they're starting to realize what they are doing is wrong. All the European scouting organizations allow gays. That's how I wish it was here. America is the slow one.

It takes straight allies to do this.

Especially kids. Kids can take a stand within their school, which does a lot because it teaches everybody else. It takes a lot of guts, but having guts is what's going to change this policy. I could have been afraid and had a perfectly normal life in scouting with my dad. We could have kept going on outings, but I decided not to. I decided to stick up for my friends. I got chewed up pretty well. It's not like I'm in scouting now, enjoying a great old time with my dad.

Did you experience different treatment in scouting?

I was never really treated the same again by some of the scoutmasters. Not all. Some said, "I agree with what you're doing, Steve, but I can't risk my scouting rank to help you." They were not willing to stand up for others, which really shows cowardice to me. It shows no heart either. If you agree that someone shouldn't be discriminated against but you're afraid to take a stand because you'll be kicked out of scouting or be confronted, that shows total cowardice. That's really callous.

One council has instituted a "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

That's stupid. I can't stand it. Then it's like there's something wrong with you. What do you mean, "don't ask, don't tell"? It shouldn't even be an issue.

Scott and Jeanette, you've lived with this as well. What has this experience been like for you?

Jeanette: For me, the biggest impact has been on how different people have reacted socially. I'm a very outgoing person. I have lots of friends, and I've been very involved in the community. For the most part people are very supportive, particularly in my own classroom.

Scott: After seeing Scout's Honor.

Jeanette: I put that up for anybody who wanted to check it out. So that helped. But initially, though, it's funny how some people will become aloof, like neighbors who are more conservative. I noticed that they stood back a little. And I thought, Oh, well, that's how they feel. Others who are very close neighbors will say, "I don't agree with that because of my religious beliefs, but I really admire Steven for standing up for what he believes in." How can anybody knock that?

Scott: It has taken a lot of time from our relationship with each other. There have been some sacrifices there. It hasn't taken much, if any, time away from the kids, because they're always the focus. We go to all their events and support them in everything. Now they're not wanting us to be there, because they're getting out of the nest.

The phone calls in the documentary are disturbing. I'm sure that had an effect on you.

Scott: I felt like closing shop, not for my own self. It did scare me.

Steven: You didn't say that.

Scott: I don't share every thought I have with you, but I did have those types of thoughts going on.

Jeanette: The police have been really good. They told us what to look for when we get packages. How to know which one might be a bomb.

Scott: One time someone sent us a medal, lit was rattling in the envelope. I didn't know what it was. Here I am opening up this envelope, thinking I might blow my fingers off. I'm not as scared as I used to be, but I'm still aware of it.

Is there a kind of ebb and flow?

Scott: We got more E-mails from the Supreme Court decision. We got an E-mail that said that they were going to kill us all. We had them follow it, and it was somebody in the Army in Germany.

Steven: That was pretty far away. I was kind of surprised.

Jeanette: A lot of the negative activity generates from something that just happened, and it's on the media, and they hear Steven live that day. That's when a lot of people call up.

Scott: The one that they showed [in the documentary] was the most frightening. And then I got one that was sort of frightening. He said I was going to die November something. It quoted the Bible someplace. That was a very threatening letter, so I had the police trace it, and it was a guy who had been arrested for carrying a gun. He was from Salinas, although he lived in Healdsburg [both towns are in California]. So they gave me his picture, and I gave it to people at work and gave it to the kids' school.

Steven: I didn't know about this.

Scott: I told you. You were younger. You may have forgotten.

Steven: No, you never told me. I don't forget things from three years ago.

Scott: I showed you his picture.

Steven: You never showed me a picture of anybody.

Scott: Ok. What do you want me to tell you? I took it to your school.

Steven: You must have kept it a secret from all of us, because I didn't know about it.

Jeanette: I didn't know about it.

Scott: Maybe I did, because you were too young. I didn't want to scare you.

Jeanette: I remember him saying that someone wanted to kill us on a certain date, but I remember I thought, Oh, well. I sort of brushed it off. I didn't know it was that big a deal.

Scott: Well, I had to.

Steven: He didn't live in this area.

Scott: Salinas isn't that far. That's where you do your bike racing. You always worry about these things. He's acting like a tough guy now. A couple of times, like before the Millennium March--

Steven: Oh ...

Scott: I'm going to say this. Before the Millennium March he says, "I hope nobody shoots me."

Steven: Oh, that was just a stupid thing.

Scott: No, you also develop thoughts.

Steven: You said prepare yourself before we went, Dad.

Jeanette: Get back to your homework. He took the entomology chapter in biology.

Scott: [Joking] Get back to your sign language. Look in the mirror and talk to yourself in sign language, will you? Have a conversation.

The threats were a low point. What were the high points?

Jeanette: One of the high points for me was when adult Eagle Scouts share how they really appreciate Steven and how they wish someone were advocating for them when they were a Scout. That really touches me, because it can't get any more personal than that.

Scott: I think a lot of satisfaction is just doing the work and being able to do it with Steven. It was so cool to walk in the Millennium March and Steven walking with us. I felt so proud about that. Just like families go out camping or hiking--we do that too, but we also take a stand for social justice.

Find a full transcript of the interview with the Cozzas at www.advocate.com