Ellen again.

After enduring a life-changing, double-barreled personal and professional ordeal, Ellen DeGeneres soars back to the top with inspirational resilience and an old-fashioned, good-time TV show

"You gotta admit," Ellen DeGeneres says between bites of fresh fruit and yogurt as she sits barefoot in her sunny Los Angeles living room, "just the fact that I didn't go away, that I'm back on television, that I got through it all and have my own show again--that's a statement all by itself."

A very robust statement. In fact, as anyone who's read a thing about the veteran sitcom star in the past two years knows, it's pretty much a miracle that she has broken through to the other side at all after surviving the trials of Hades. Recovering from one of the most publicized gay relationships in media history--as well as the loss of her beloved weekly sitcom, Ellen--DeGeneres is definitely a walking poster girl for one of the oldest cliches around: What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. At the very least, the fruits of her tenacious labors include starring in and executive-producing a new sitcom--The Ellen Show, on CBS Fridays at 8 P.M.--as well as hosting the prime-time Emmys on September 16.

In the time that has passed since her last interview with The Advocate, in March 2000 (her first and only with the gay press), all sorts of roads have closed down and opened up for DeGeneres. No one, including her, could have predicted the astonishing events of the last 18 months. As we sat down together to try to assess and discuss them all, the following conversation unfolded. Always feisty, funny, and honest, DeGeneres gives us a glimpse of what it all looks like from the vantage point of the only out TV star to take on her second out lesbian lead character in a network television sitcom ...

Before we talk about your new sitcom, please tell me a little bit about the TV variety show you created and filmed before deciding to do this sitcom instead. What happened?

I think everybody thinks that the network changed their minds about the variety show. It wasn't them. It was me. It was a hard sell to get somebody to decide to put money into a variety show--a show that hasn't worked in a long, long time. And people have tried. I had to convince them that I can do it and it would be great. My idea for it was the old-fashioned Carol Burnett Show. A show that was just funny for the sake of being funny. It was not mean-spirited. But the problem is, after we tried it, we started realizing that when Carol Burnett was on, there weren't all these other shows to compete with and all these other channels. And I didn't know how to make it different, you know. I just started looking at it and thinking, A weekly variety show is going to be really hard.

Yes, much harder than a sitcom.

And it's not like I do characters and dialects. Carol did great characters. I think I would be a good host, which is why I like hosting things, but as far as being in different sketches, being something different all the time, no. I can be myself all the time in different sketches--but that's a sitcom.

So what did you do?

I had to go back to them and say, "I've changed my mind"--after they picked up the variety show and said they would do it. It was going to be a midseason replacement. But I convinced them that in the long run it really is best that we shelve it and do a sitcom. We had to burn the money we spent.

Why didn't you do a sitcom from the start?

I didn't want to do a sitcom originally because I'd just come out of one. It was like, "OK, what do I do now, where do I go?" That's why I thought a variety show would be good, because it was hard for me to do anything other than be Ellen DeGeneres. It was hard for me to figure out who the sitcom character would be. It was just too soon, too close to the last show.

Maybe filming the variety pilot cleared your head for the new sitcom?

Yes, I think so too. After that we came up with this great idea for the sitcom and started writing it. I'm doing the same thing with the sitcom I wanted to do with a variety show--just doing a funny show! It has that old-fashioned feel, that's just funny, that's not mean-spirited. Somehow we captured it. There's this chemistry between everybody in the cast. And it feels like an old Mary Tyler Moore Show. It feels like we're in our third season or something.

Which must be quite a relief for you.

Oh, yes, when I was in the middle of it, of trying to figure out what I was going to do next, it felt like I was in the middle of a desert with no hope in sight for water. I really felt like I would never have a show again. Then suddenly I was on a stage doing a pilot that just felt so good to me. I felt calm and natural and funny and all the things that I had really missed.

Do you have a tape of the variety show you filmed?

Mmm-hmm. I've got the pilot. I'll show you that sometime. It's pretty funny.

Why did you decide to go with CBS? Is there any story about how that happened?

I met with Fox and NBC and CBS, and ABC wanted to meet with me.

ABC! Really?

Yeah, they said they were definitely interested in meeting with me.

How would you have felt about that?

You know, I really feel like ABC didn't do anything different than any other network would have. I think any other network would've handled the situation of my first show the same way. You've got advertisers and you've got affiliates and you've got a lot of pressure and you've got sponsors. Just hearing about Mobil and Exxon getting rid of same-sex benefits, I guess they probably won't be advertising on my new show. There are probably a lot of people that I still may have problems with. I don't feel like bringing up old stuff, but ... I have reached out to someone at ABC just because I don't like bad blood, and I apologized for any behavior on my part. And we both were passionate about our sides, and I was passionate that I was doing the right thing. I felt misunderstood. But I did reach out to someone there, and it was not very satisfying, so I just thought, You know what? It'd be different if that phone call would've gone differently, if he would've said, "You know, I'm so sorry for my part in anything also," but there was just silence on the other end of the phone. It really is a shame when you have a relationship of any sort for five years and it ends badly.

I guess it's all about relationships.

Absolutely. Look, they were interested because basically I'm a product--I'm a commodity. And suddenly, with the success of Will & Grace, they're thinking, OK, we can have a gay person on television. We're interested in this now. There's been some time. But CBS just felt right. [Television president] Les Moonves believes in the show. I think he's a good guy. He's putting us on Friday nights to try to protect the show for a little while, you know, before it moves. They have one comedy night, that's Monday, and it's full. So Everybody Loves Raymond started on Friday nights, and he kept it there for a while and then moved it, and maybe that's what he's going to do with us. It also says something that I'm on Friday nights at 8 o'clock, you know.

It sure does. In your opinion, what is the big difference between your last sitcom and The Ellen Show?

In the first sitcom, my character came to a realization that she was gay late in life and had to go through the steps of experiencing what being gay really is. And it was huge in her world. It was gigantic. So every day she was dealing with a whole new life, dealing with being gay and how it affected her.

Watching those episodes made me relive many of my own coming-out dramas.

Exactly. But the difference between that show and this show is that being gay is now a nonissue. Hopefully, it's a funny show with a character that happens to be gay. It is totally different from Will & Grace. That show does deal with being gay, about the fun of being gay. This is about someone who happens to be a gay woman. She also happens to have blond hair.

You know, I've read critics say that Will & Grace is a gay show for straight people. That's why they have Grace. Do you think the new show that you're doing would ever be classified that way?

No, because I don't think it's a gay show. I think it's just a sitcom with a gay person. I mean, it's my show, so it's different than Soap in the sense that Billy Crystal was gay on Soap but he wasn't the lead character. In the pilot we deal with my being gay in a very funny way. And we're going to deal with it as it presents itself. But we're not looking for, "What's it like to be gay in a small town?" It's not a struggle. We're actually making up this fantasy small town where when they find out I'm gay, instead of being uncomfortable or being homophobic, they go overboard and say how great it is.

Now if the real world would just follow ...

I would like to think that there are people out there who feel this way. I think the media sometimes assumes that everybody's uptight and homophobic. I just think it's a different place now. Unfortunately, there's all this negative hype. I was watching television and somebody was talking about my new show, saying, "Is America ready for this, and is CBS the place for this type of show?" It's like, "Well, you haven't even seen the show--what do you mean, `this type of show?'" It's a sitcom. It's a funny show.

But the media needs controversy to get people's attention.

And I knew going into this new project that there were going to be people who wouldn't even turn on my new show and give it a chance because I'm not just playing a gay character, I'm a gay woman.

And no one else (who is out) has ever done that ... still.

And that makes a difference. For many people, it's easier to see somebody who's straight playing a gay person, because you know they're not really gay.

It must be somewhat gratifying for you to know you are "historic," so to speak.

I got a call from Marlo Thomas yesterday, and she's doing a book called The Right Words at the Right Time, and she's interviewing people that are free-thinkers and that are inspirational. She's interviewing Gloria Steinem, Diane Sawyer, others, and ... me. She told me, "I want you to write what made you do the things that you did to become a hero to so many people." When you think about the fact that there are many gay stars who could do what I did, who could be the next person to do it--and they chose not to.

I remember you said you were waiting to see who would come out next.

Well, I think I was used as a big example. They used me to send a very strong message to other gay stars who were considering coming out: "Here's what happens if you do this--it's not going to be celebrated."

I actually remember a television producer--who is gay--telling me exactly what you are saying.

And so I think it sends another message now that I'm not only back on television in a regular show, but I'm hosting the Emmys.

When you were creating the new series, was your character always going to be gay?

Oh, yeah, yeah. That was just a given. I'm so identified with that. And I'm so proud of it too. I struggled for a long time to be proud of it and not hide it. I don't know why I would turn around and play straight. As it is, I'm sure there will be some people who will think that because being gay isn't the focus of the show and because it's not a gay show dealing with gay issues and how hard it is to be gay, they'll say I'm soft-pedaling it. They'll think that I'm getting pressure from the networks, so I'm not doing enough. But, look, I'm a gay person. I'm proud that I'm gay, and I'm going to be gay in the show, and that's that. Nothing else was ever even a consideration.

What about films?

Well, that's interesting, because it would be easier for me to play a straight character in a movie--if it was a onetime thing. But a weekly thing? No. That would be tough. Then you do have to get into dating and whatever. I'm a comedian. There's so much funny ground to be working with, just being a gay person in awkward situations.

Will the new Ellen have a love interest?

I hope so. I am a sexually active adult character. Well, obviously I'm not sexually active; I'm alone. But we're getting away with it by saying I just got out of a relationship, so I don't really have any interest in dating. And it's pretty easy when it's just you and the P.E. teacher in town.

You two are very funny.

Good. So I think we're going to try to not deal with it for a while. Or maybe I'll date the other 23 hours of the day, you know, or 23 1/2, because the show's only a half hour of her life. Maybe she dates right when the show's over.

OK. Then I won't ask you about on-screen affection and kissing.

I probably wouldn't do that anyway. I think that it was important for the last sitcom to show that because it was the first time she got to hold a girl's hand and it was the first time she got to sleep with a woman. Now I'm going back to an old-fashioned kind of sitcom. If you saw The Mary Tyler Moore Show, you know it was awkward and the dates never worked out and they were horrible. It's always funnier that way. This sitcom is not about me falling in love or showing what a gay relationship is like so that America can learn something. I was walking a very fine sitcom line, trying to be educational at the same time I was trying to be funny and demonstrate, "Here's what it's like for Ellen Morgan to do this. And here's something that maybe you want to watch." But they didn't ...

Some of them did.

Yeah, but a lot of them didn't. I mean, you know, the ratings went pretty far down. And I understand. People just want to turn on a TV and laugh. I'm a comedian, and my entire career up until the day that I came out had been making people laugh. But when I became aware of all the things that were being swept under the rug, that nobody was dealing with, that weren't right-- when I saw the lives that I was touching--I got caught up in it. I got political and I started trying to do everything I could.

It was unbelievable.

Yeah, but now I really just, want to get back to what I did: I want to do a half hour of really funny television. So the dating thing wouldn't be me making out with somebody on TV. That is never going to be funny.

But if you keep things pretty safe and funny on your show, will there be other avenues for you to be political, to express yourself in a more activist way?

I don't know. I have a film that I'm going to meet with writers about pretty soon. And then if other things come up, it depends on my time, my availability. And yes, if there are things that I can do to help, you know, lend my name to, or that I can just show up for, yes. I also feel like just being visible, just being on television, and just being back out there makes a huge difference.

Yes, there's nothing safe about playing a gay person, even in a sitcom that isn't about being gay.

And the people that are still stuck doing and saying all those hateful things--maybe seeing someone on TV who is gay will slowly seep into their souls. 'Cause you know, there are still people who hate black people. It's like, the people who watch Oprah may at one time have had strong negative opinions about black people. Then they watch Oprah. I think that she's probably one of the greatest people I've ever met. She's amazing. And I think she's making a huge difference, and her show is making a huge difference because she talks about topics that are really important, and she does shows that inspire and help people get in touch with their spirituality.

But that's a very different kind of show.

At some point I would love to do a show that blends all that. I think that I'll probably end up doing a talk show at some point in my career. And maybe that's when more political things will happen. I do think that people respect what I did. Even if the show failed, I think there are a lot of people that have changed their minds a little bit.

Sounds like you've made your peace with it.

There were other contributing factors to the demise of my sitcom. It wasn't just the show and me coming out, it was a lot of other things. But I know that the baggage that I have now is because everyone thought I got so political. People just want to have fun. They don't want to know about your personal life. I mean, I could say that I hate carrots, and suddenly all the carrot growers would hate me. I mean, you can say anything and piss somebody off. But if you do, you lose a huge segment of your audience. So it's very hard to be political and especially about something like homosexuality, which is still such a big thing to people.

You've learned a lot about the American public, haven't you?

I learned all of my lessons the hard way, and I wouldn't change a thing. I wouldn't take anything back, not one thing that happened in my life, I would not change. But I would be really stupid to not learn some lessons from that and not understand that when you're an entertainer and when you're a comedian, it's best to try to keep the politics separate.

Tell me what's happening to the HBO special you were making with Anne Heche when you were on the road doing your stand-up comedy last year all across America.

It's locked away somewhere. I've completely stopped it. I decided that there's no need to rehash that time in my life. It was 200 hours of uncut stuff, so trying to go through all of that was torture for me. It was my entire summer last summer, sitting through ...

You sat there watching all that footage of the two of you together?

Yes. And you know, you can have your memories of things, but when you have 200 hours of your life together on film and you're sitting there and watching it `cause it's a documentary...! Everything you did is right there for you to see. So you're watching yourself and you're watching yourself interact with your girlfriend, looking at what your relationship was together. I couldn't do it.

I can't believe you even tried. I mean, that's amazing.

It was amazing. It was also very hard to watch my life, you know. But I have to tell you, it was also very healthy. It was purging. I just kept trying to put funny stuff together for a special, and no matter what I did, she was in it, and he [Coley Laffoon, the assistant cameraman on this HBO project, whom Heche is marrying] was in it. And let's be honest here, nobody would be looking at this project for any other reason than to be looking at them together or to be looking back at our relationship.

No question about it. But why were you even trying to plow through all that film so soon after the breakup?

It's all that and money that I borrowed that I'm responsible for. I'm now responsible to pay for all the film Anne shot. I was going to pay it back by putting it together and selling it to HBO. And so now it's just sitting in a vault. Because it's film, it has to be kept in temperature-controlled storage. I don't want to burn it yet. I think that's the wrong thing to do. I think that's a decision I really have to think about.

That's an amazing story. Wow.

It is, it is. Very few people have the luxury of looking at themselves and the person they were with like that.

The question that keeps coming into my head is ...

Were there any clues?

Yeah! Like you said, this isn't some romantic or distorted memory. You were watching reality on film. So I guess I'm wondering, what did you learn that you weren't sure of before?

[Long pause] Anybody who would look at this film would say, "Anne loved Ellen so much." We were constantly affectionate, constantly loving. So I guess what I learned was, yes, she did love me.

I think that must be both a big relief and also very confusing.

Well, it's kind of a double-edged sword, you know. I guess when Anne does something, she does something 100%.

Well, we always learn a lot about ourselves from loving someone ...

Yeah, it showed me an awful lot about myself. So that documentary probably will never see the light of day. I'm sure I will burn everything, but I just can't do it right now. I've never talked about this before with any magazine. I really, I try to choose my words carefully because I would rather really not say anything. But I feel comfortable in saying that I loved her very much.

That's the only one thing I don't mind saying.

Well, you learned that you could really be in love with someone. Until that happens to you, you always wonder, right?

Yes, exactly. There are people out there that have not had their hearts broken yet and are about to. Believe me, it'll happen.

[Laughs] Be afraid!

And, you know, it feels like your insides are cracking open. I hadn't experienced it before. I had never been left by anybody--I was always the one to leave. And I had never had my heart broken. And it feels like you cannot go on. And I would sit and literally not know where the day went. The sun would come up and the sun would go down, and I didn't notice because I was just staring at the wall. I didn't leave my house. I would go through days of crying. It felt like I would never live again. But you do.

Yes, you do.

No matter how painful it is, no matter what the source of the pain is, you just put one foot in front of the other and live. I finally decided, I can't continue to wallow in this and feel sorry for myself, even though I have every reason to feel sorry for myself I mean, this is bad!

I certainly remember talking to you during those times. There were days you sounded terrible and days you sounded OK.

Yes, it depended on which day something new occurred. In the beginning it was because she'd just walked out the door. And then it was because she was with Coley, and then supposedly she was pregnant, and then it was marriage. But that initial thing, when she left, well, I could've just sat and felt sorry for myself for a long, long time.

So what turned the switch the other way?

I decided the best revenge is living well. So I decided, I'm going to get up and I'm going to start working out every single day because I know that makes me feel good. No, I didn't feel like getting up and going to the gym and working out, but I just had to do something to take care of myself, and I couldn't make myself feel better in any other way, other than physically. So I worked out with a trainer every single day. And it started making me feel better. I swear it was like when people say, "If you're sad, if you just smile ..."

Whistle a happy tune?

I know, but it's true. Somehow it does something to you inside.

It reminds you in the smallest way that your whole life isn't about this pain.

It sounds silly, but it really does. I started reading The Four Agreements again. I read The Power of Now, which I recommend to everybody. I just forced myself, even though I really didn't feel like it. If you don't push yourself, that's when you just give up. And it doesn't do any good to give up.

Getting through it changes your life forever.

Right. Because then the next bad thing that happens, you realize you can get through it. That is what my breakup with Anne did for me. I'd been in relationships before--and I love being in relationships. I'm a relationship person. I am not good at being single. I don't even know how to date. I don't know what that is. I've always loved love! I love companionship. But what the breakup did for me is that it made me treasure love. When I had my heart broken, instead of just thinking, There'll be somebody else--because there's always been somebody else right there--I had to really suffer the loss. See, I've always been able to meet somebody right away. I've gotten really lucky, because I'm really picky. It's not like I just say, "Hey, you'll do!" No, the women that I've been in relationships with are still very special to me and are all friends. I mean, I'm friends with everyone. But this time, after having my heart broken, it made me treasure love more. It made me understand how precious it is and how much work it is and how you fight for it and try to keep it no matter what. Because I really, truly believed we were going be together the rest of our lives.

Well, Ellen, many of us did too.

Yeah. I mean, in the beginning, I didn't. I was constantly questioning. And when she finally convinced me that she was not going anywhere and this was forever and ever--she left. At that point, every part of me believed I was going to be with her. So when I suddenly wasn't going to be with her--well, then, who was I?

You lost yourself?

Oh, yeah, because, you know, it was such a circus of "Ellen and Anne! Ellen and Anne! Anne and Ellen!" Our names were always together. It was all intertwined in the public and the press. I mean, our life together was huge. It wasn't just a normal relationship, you know. We were always going somewhere, doing something, and everything we did was news. So it was big. So everything after that seems really quiet and calm, and I like that. I mean, it was like that, before her, and it's getting back to what it was like before her.

Oh, the media circus. How did you stand it? It was surreal.

Our relationship itself wasn't like that. It was the public, the cameras, and the noise. But, you know, the home life was very different from that--it was very normal and very nice. We never fought, really ...

That's unusual.

Well, we fought over ... [Pauses] I never did understand love scenes, and we would fight over that. I don't think I could be with an actress who does love scenes again. I didn't like that. It was really hard for me. But that's all we ever fought over. There are certain actresses that take their clothes off in a movie and certain actresses that won't. Why can't you be one of those people that doesn't ? I wondered. It was threatening to me. Especially since she was straight before I met her and she was doing love scenes with men. I worried, Is this something you would enjoy? I've gotta tell you, this is something I'm so happy never to have to deal with again.

Do you want to say anything about any other relationship you've had since Anne?

No. I would rather keep my private life private this time. And it's not like I'm going to try to hide it--and if I go out in public and I'm in a relationship, I'm going to say I'm in a relationship. But I don't want to talk about it now.

Would you ever date a straight woman again, Ellen?

I will never date a straight woman again. Ever. [Thinks a minute] I would just answer that by saying I don't think Anne represents all straight women. But no, I really want to be with somebody who knows clearly who she is and has known for some time who she is. I know who I am. I have a really strong sense of self. And I want to be with somebody who has a really strong sense of self and is proud and likes themselves.

Well, that is a big quest.

You bet it is. You have to work on knowing who you are. It's a daily thing to be in touch with your spirituality and be in touch with something bigger. You can get sucked into regular bullshit--that stuff that seems important and is not. I want to be with somebody who is on the same journey. I'm very picky. And I like that I'm picky and that I'm not going to settle.

I don't blame you. Obviously, everybody knows about Anne's book, Call Me Crazy.

Nothing surprises me anymore, you know? I mean, it really doesn't. It just doesn't matter what she says. It's her truth, and she has different truths than I do and different experiences. It's just weird, since there's been no interaction between us. I just wanted to forgive and move on. Mainly, I don't want our breakup to become the same circus that our relationship was.

Have you found ways to let these feelings out?

In the beginning I wrote constantly in my journal, every single day, every night. It was a great way to get my feelings out. I didn't turn on a TV. I didn't listen to music. I just would sit. I wrote a lot. It's weird, because I've had someone [get] killed before. I've had a girlfriend die. I know about the silence.

Oh, of course, Kat, right?

Right, so it's like, that's a different kind of loss. You're never able to speak to the person again and you never know what would have happened or never happened. That's a different kind of leaving. Anne's still alive, you know, even though there was a death of sorts. But ... yeah, I write a lot. It's just not a book: Call Me Quiet. [Laughs]

What has it been like for you and Melissa Etheridge this past year? Before any of this happened to either of your relationships, you actually said in our last Advocate interview how much you missed the days that you had friendships with Melissa and k.d. Now there are books out talking about different lesbian celebrities sleeping with each other's partners, and, I mean, people are E-mailing me, saying, "What's the matter with lesbians?"

Well, Judy, really, what is the matter with lesbians? I ask myself the same question.

[Laughs] So true. But, really, was it comforting for you and Melissa to be going through the same thing at the same time?

Well, Melissa and I are friends, and we have dinner or we hang out sometimes. But it isn't anything we sat and talked about. But what was interesting is that they were actually breaking up when I called her to tell her about Anne and me.

Did she say, "This is happening to me too!"?

No. Not at the time, because they were just starting to come apart. And then someone got a hold of the information and was threatening to run it in the tabloids. So they announced it themselves. But I think it's a different situation with them. I think that they're still friends and they have children to raise together, and I think that relationship probably wasn't good for a while, They were really working on it. And so it's a different situation. But it really was unfortunate about the timing of both breakups. There aren't too many role-model couples out there that are saying, you know, we can last. And unfortunately, the couples that are the role models aren't famous. My mother, when she goes out on the road and speaks all over the country, meets gay couples all the lime. She met a couple of men that have been together for 40 years a couple of women that've been together for 50 years. That does exist--they are out there. And I do believe that it's possible. I do believe in monogamy. I think relationships are hard work. Unfortunately, I think that our situations, mine and Melissa's, are just two breakups that happened at the

stone time. And it doesn't necessarily mean anything.

I also think that the public was hearing how both Anne and Julie were dealing with their sexual orientation in these breakups ...

That's why it's hard when you say, "Would you ever date a straight woman?" To negate somebody's feelings? That's wrong. I think it is possible to fall in love with a person and not necessarily think you're gay.

I mean, that was Anne's whole argument before. She wasn't gay. She was in love with me.

Yes, and I remember that she said that right from the beginning.

So I could care less if it's a choice or if it's biological. People should be allowed to love who they want to love.

And then where does bisexuality fall into any of this?

Then you're open to anything, and there's nothing wrong with that either. I wouldn't want to be involved with somebody like that because, you know, there are that many more choices out there for the person to fall in love with. But who's to say that there's something wrong with somebody saying, "I'm open to everything, and I just fall in love with the soul and with the spirit," `cause ultimately that's what the love is. Love is not the shell, it's not the package--so to speak. [Laughs] I really kinda try not to have concrete opinions about other people's lives. I just know what's good for me and what's right for me. I know who I am. Other than that, who am I to say what is right for somebody else or why it has to be biological or it has to be a choice? It's just whatever makes people happy, and it's different for everybody.

All right, is there anything fallish that you want to say for The Advocate's fall preview?

Hmm ... What's the new color this fall, do we know?

Oh, please, Ellen, you're talking to the wrong person.

Oh, right [laughing], OK.

But wait, did you want to tell us something about fashion? Is that where you were headed?

Yeah, that's where I was heading. Oh, I don't know. I'm just excited about the new show. And I beg all of you Advocate readers to stay home on Friday nights and watch it. I mean, that's really important. And I hope you like it.